We had exactly the same in Australia. I thought those who had come to live here were Australians with Indian heritage.
I am Australian with NZ heritage that itself dates back to Scotland. I still have close & distant relatives in both countries, I have interest in their lives & wellbeing but I am Australian foremost. Would I go to hear Luxon speak? Not on your nelly!
True David! …. I think Albanese is even worse than Luxflakes. That’s harsh criticism but true. Starmer, Macron, Carney, they’re all weak. Why can’t NZ have a Milei?
I don’t particularly care one way or another re the apparent bromance, however I do wonder what our negotiators are committing us to? Why would a trade deal include migration for example, and what on earth is that Article 13.2 doing there - ‘affirmation’ of the UN’s UNDRIP request?
I get the feeling that we are off on an adventure, but not of our making.
The more I hear about this FTA the more nervous I get. So if Labour is on board is it a fait accompli? Can a NZ First coalition government repeal it if they have the numbers, or if they decide to make it an election issue? Why is ACT not jumping up and down?? PLEASE make a public submission opposing it, and read the small print to see how absolutely ONE-SIDED it is!!!
To me it feels very unbelievable that Luxon is saying things about how hard working Indians are and that kiwis need to take notice! I know they work very hard but we kiwis have and still do! It hurts me for the many kiwis who have built this country - like my late father who was a drain layer who dug the drains by hand for many years before a digger came along…Luxon is losing the plot and NZ is losing under him and Labour. Seems like a plan to me…a very bad one!
This is quite the wrong language, Peter. 'Weird' clearly connotes a supernatural influence. Is that what you wanted to convey? If not, then choose a different word.
And as to holding hands: it's quite unfair to pick on this as out of place. It is completely acceptable and it's a part of Indian culture. Men will even walk along a street holding hands, out of friendship; there is no thought or fear of any other connotation in Indian culture. For our PM to do that was quite 'in place' for welcoming a foreign guest and making him comfortable while visiting here. That's purely Kiwi hospitality.
Let's rather focus on the really important parts of this picture: the NZ negotiation stance for the FTA was questionable, and the resultant deal is itself very unfortunate.
The main negotiator was quoted as reporting that the Indian delegation stood up to walk out of the room, more than once, as soon as the NZ side mentioned dairy products. It's obviously a tactic to make the NZ side feel desperate.... and the deal we can read about now is the sad result. Our guys clearly succumbed to their stand-over tactics...... And that is pure psychology; not supernatural;
Indeed Aroha, so cringey. India is also not that closely in sync with Kiwi values. Caste systems, corruption & bribery are de rigeur for India. Wait, hang on, maybe they are more aligned with modern day NZ than I realised.. 🧐
Peter, you hit the nail on the head. I said to my husband, the length of time is the key here. Holding or shaking hands momentarily for a photo op is quite acceptable. But this was an extended hold like the kind we see when school children are in the walking school bus to stop them from running off. Does anyone know who initiated it? The Aussies are furious too. Their adulation event has NOT been taken lightly, and they are not too prim to shout about it.
I would still like to know who precisely slipped in the UNDRIP reference in Article 13.2. In the FTA? This is really important as to how this was slipped in and who was responsible?
It doesnt really matter who slipped the UNDRIP reference in, I suspect it was one of the woke Assistants in the left leaning woke Bureaucracy, but I dont believe it could be slipped in without the highest specific political approval. This is no mere accident of drafting, there is deliberate intent. The fact remains it is the Minister and Prime Minister leading this Pact, this representation, this FTA. These Ministers by the responsibilities of their Office are fully responsible for this agreement and every term it contains. Luxon is cementing that initiated by Key, namely the transfer of an "Exclusive Sovereign Authority" by our own nation, across to the unelected unaccountable authority of a United Nations subordinate UNDRIP entity. NZ Parliament must discern if that action is treasonous, if not the Voters will make the final judgement on the Minister.
Yeah weird is a good description. I couldn't bring myself to watch the NZ stopover ceremony but I did watch a bit of the Melbourne event. It was equally weird. Albanese walked with Modi across the grounds of the MCG awkwardly namastering his way into the stand where he sat pathetically listening to Modi talk to the adoring crowd in Hindi for good 40 minutes. It's shameful and embarrassing frankly. Nobody minds Indians adoring politicians from their country of birth as if they were Gods, which they are not, but the question then is why don't they go back and adore them at home?
Confer Peter. I have Indian friends who came here for a better life, and had no intention of going to see Modi. NZ is there home. Having lived in many countries over 50 yrs, I always held NZ passport and citizenship in high regard. I am well educated, hard working, well versed in other cultures, and now invested in making a difference to this fine country. This denigration by Luxon of our youth, majority of who are well educated, hard working, and even our elders who built this country was unacceptable language. It was like a 'pop' idol concert. As for the hand holding, I understand it and there is a measure of respect along with restrain, expected of world leaders.
Indeed Peter. It’s the same naive greed that saw Clark, Key & Ardern drive up immigrant volumes. The same naive greed that sees US universities accepting billions from Qatar. NZ used to take ‘bribes’ from China, now we’re simply moving to India. We’re being swamped by immigrants who no longer need/want to adapt cos Auckland is now little India. It’s a downright fucking tragedy is what it is. These dim witted morons have sold our wonderful cultural heritage down the river for a few pieces of silver.
New Zealand was originally settled in modern times by predominantly British Migrants who settled under the framework of British Citizenry under British Law and culturally guided by British Christian Ministry. Any Student of Christianity would know that Moses led his people into the wilderness where they stayed for forty years. It took 40 years or about three generations to unleash the slave mentality/mindset based on their slavemaster's pagan culture, and establish a people ready to adopt the Christian teaching to build a community.
Today we have a similar problem. The Christian teaching adopted by the early God fearing Pioneers has been replaced by godless capitalism and consumerism supplemented by pagan culture from various secular immigration groups.
The question is, can these diverse secular groups integrate to form a cohesive productive society or will they simply band into their own specific cultures and fight for their unique supremacy, as so far immigration has shown to be the case.
My humble observation is that these various groups have NO enduring commitment to integration into a whole productive Nation, they demand to retain their individual cultural mindset.
The problem we existing Citizens have is, unlike Moses, We dont have 40 years time to wait while they get sorted. The only other short term solution I see is, several regional divisions. IE NZ cut into sections, where those of one cultural order migrates to the section of their choosing and support and independent Governance. Will it come down to that; exploding self serving populations jostling for space. Maoris on the East Coast. Indians on the North Coast, Chinese on the West Coast, and original pioneer Citizens relegated to the deep South. Is that the only way to avoid a war of cultures that UNDRIP will inevitably initiate. We have much to thank these Ministers and their Party Agenda for. But will the children of our legacy forgive.
I think that you are expecting far too much from Luxon - he simply doesn't appear to have any beliefs or basic philosophy as such and that has been evident for quite some time now. As for the holding hands thing- I think amongst males that is acceptable in some societies, and we shouldn't read much if anything into that that. We certainly need to regular our immigrants and always should aim for a tightly controlled flow of people from diverse countries but all of whom have a commitment to integrate and become New Zealanders.
Well mostly I suggest so that we don't have ghettos forming which is largely the problem in Europe at present. That means almost zero integration. Also because probably the greatest period of immigration was into the US in the first part of the 20th century and that was a success by any measure.
Wait on. In your first comment you were calling for immigrants from diverse sources: ". . . tightly controlled flow of people from diverse countries . . ."
The reason Europe is having problems is because the incomers are a "diverse" lot. Couldn't be more diverse. And it's people from "diverse" sources that form ghettoes.
That greatest period of immigration into the US in the first part of the 20th century was a long way from being diverse. It was almost entirely from Europe.
The US, especially the Democrat run states (California and Minnesota at the top of the list) is currently experiencing corruption on a vast scale precisely because immigration to those areas is diversity on steroids.
Gilbert - you are quite right and my choice of the word 'diverse' was ill thought and I retract it. Likewise you are correct about the US immigration -it was not very diverse at all in the first part of the 20th century. You are quite wrong though I think about Europe and especially the UK now as the problem is that is uncontrolled immigration and the results of that in the UK and throughout Europe are just awful. Thanks for the correction -a good debate.
Obviously, uncontrolled migration is causing huge problems for Europe; I don't dispute that at all. It just happens to be worsened by those migrants being "diverse".
At least we get to discuss this topic is a reasonable way and for that - thank you. The way that the immigrants into the Uk are not diverse (as I understand it ) is that they are almost entirely young males. I suggest the experience=in so many countries is that immigration must be carefully controlled.
Apparently, the Kiwi PM has to follow Indian culture and hold hands with his Indian counterpart, even when they meet in New Zealand.
But the Indian PM doesn't have to follow Kiwi culture and speak in our official language when he's in our country.
Not only weird, disrespectful.
And years ago I read somewhere that a certain class of Indians believed that India had a country in the South Pacific. They were, of course, referring to Fiji.
In decades to come, they'll be saying they have two countries in the South Pacific.
Another point of interest - India remains one of Russia’s main customers, importing billions of dollars of oil and fuel, plus they negotiated decades-long contracts for Russian military hardware, including tanks, fighter jets and air defence systems.
Apparently Western sanctions do not apply to the Indian regime; that’s their call but again just what is our Govt lining us up with?
PS: I am not anti-trade at all, the more we can create healthy markets for our products the better, as long as there aren’t inappropriate caveats involved.
We had exactly the same in Australia. I thought those who had come to live here were Australians with Indian heritage.
I am Australian with NZ heritage that itself dates back to Scotland. I still have close & distant relatives in both countries, I have interest in their lives & wellbeing but I am Australian foremost. Would I go to hear Luxon speak? Not on your nelly!
Ha, ha, ha...except your PM was equally obsequious and embarrassing......
True David! …. I think Albanese is even worse than Luxflakes. That’s harsh criticism but true. Starmer, Macron, Carney, they’re all weak. Why can’t NZ have a Milei?
Totally with you there Boris!
I don’t particularly care one way or another re the apparent bromance, however I do wonder what our negotiators are committing us to? Why would a trade deal include migration for example, and what on earth is that Article 13.2 doing there - ‘affirmation’ of the UN’s UNDRIP request?
I get the feeling that we are off on an adventure, but not of our making.
The more I hear about this FTA the more nervous I get. So if Labour is on board is it a fait accompli? Can a NZ First coalition government repeal it if they have the numbers, or if they decide to make it an election issue? Why is ACT not jumping up and down?? PLEASE make a public submission opposing it, and read the small print to see how absolutely ONE-SIDED it is!!!
To me it feels very unbelievable that Luxon is saying things about how hard working Indians are and that kiwis need to take notice! I know they work very hard but we kiwis have and still do! It hurts me for the many kiwis who have built this country - like my late father who was a drain layer who dug the drains by hand for many years before a digger came along…Luxon is losing the plot and NZ is losing under him and Labour. Seems like a plan to me…a very bad one!
As Key is remembered for getting us into UNDRIP, so Luxon will be remembered for getting us into this arse-kissing Indian FTA.
This is quite the wrong language, Peter. 'Weird' clearly connotes a supernatural influence. Is that what you wanted to convey? If not, then choose a different word.
And as to holding hands: it's quite unfair to pick on this as out of place. It is completely acceptable and it's a part of Indian culture. Men will even walk along a street holding hands, out of friendship; there is no thought or fear of any other connotation in Indian culture. For our PM to do that was quite 'in place' for welcoming a foreign guest and making him comfortable while visiting here. That's purely Kiwi hospitality.
Let's rather focus on the really important parts of this picture: the NZ negotiation stance for the FTA was questionable, and the resultant deal is itself very unfortunate.
The main negotiator was quoted as reporting that the Indian delegation stood up to walk out of the room, more than once, as soon as the NZ side mentioned dairy products. It's obviously a tactic to make the NZ side feel desperate.... and the deal we can read about now is the sad result. Our guys clearly succumbed to their stand-over tactics...... And that is pure psychology; not supernatural;
Weird more than weird.
Is this migration planning that Luxon is facilitating.
Are Kiwis being replaced ?
Will this eventuate in 10-20 yrs.
As they outvote us and our culture is subsumed ….
They should have let them go. WHY DIDN'T THEY???
"I prefer the latter". I'm with you on this one - could hardly bring myself to watch the adulation on all sides at all.
Indeed Aroha, so cringey. India is also not that closely in sync with Kiwi values. Caste systems, corruption & bribery are de rigeur for India. Wait, hang on, maybe they are more aligned with modern day NZ than I realised.. 🧐
Peter, you hit the nail on the head. I said to my husband, the length of time is the key here. Holding or shaking hands momentarily for a photo op is quite acceptable. But this was an extended hold like the kind we see when school children are in the walking school bus to stop them from running off. Does anyone know who initiated it? The Aussies are furious too. Their adulation event has NOT been taken lightly, and they are not too prim to shout about it.
Watched a bit of the Melbourne event and it was embarrassing and I'm not Australian.
I would still like to know who precisely slipped in the UNDRIP reference in Article 13.2. In the FTA? This is really important as to how this was slipped in and who was responsible?
It doesnt really matter who slipped the UNDRIP reference in, I suspect it was one of the woke Assistants in the left leaning woke Bureaucracy, but I dont believe it could be slipped in without the highest specific political approval. This is no mere accident of drafting, there is deliberate intent. The fact remains it is the Minister and Prime Minister leading this Pact, this representation, this FTA. These Ministers by the responsibilities of their Office are fully responsible for this agreement and every term it contains. Luxon is cementing that initiated by Key, namely the transfer of an "Exclusive Sovereign Authority" by our own nation, across to the unelected unaccountable authority of a United Nations subordinate UNDRIP entity. NZ Parliament must discern if that action is treasonous, if not the Voters will make the final judgement on the Minister.
Yeah weird is a good description. I couldn't bring myself to watch the NZ stopover ceremony but I did watch a bit of the Melbourne event. It was equally weird. Albanese walked with Modi across the grounds of the MCG awkwardly namastering his way into the stand where he sat pathetically listening to Modi talk to the adoring crowd in Hindi for good 40 minutes. It's shameful and embarrassing frankly. Nobody minds Indians adoring politicians from their country of birth as if they were Gods, which they are not, but the question then is why don't they go back and adore them at home?
Confer Peter. I have Indian friends who came here for a better life, and had no intention of going to see Modi. NZ is there home. Having lived in many countries over 50 yrs, I always held NZ passport and citizenship in high regard. I am well educated, hard working, well versed in other cultures, and now invested in making a difference to this fine country. This denigration by Luxon of our youth, majority of who are well educated, hard working, and even our elders who built this country was unacceptable language. It was like a 'pop' idol concert. As for the hand holding, I understand it and there is a measure of respect along with restrain, expected of world leaders.
Indeed Peter. It’s the same naive greed that saw Clark, Key & Ardern drive up immigrant volumes. The same naive greed that sees US universities accepting billions from Qatar. NZ used to take ‘bribes’ from China, now we’re simply moving to India. We’re being swamped by immigrants who no longer need/want to adapt cos Auckland is now little India. It’s a downright fucking tragedy is what it is. These dim witted morons have sold our wonderful cultural heritage down the river for a few pieces of silver.
New Zealand was originally settled in modern times by predominantly British Migrants who settled under the framework of British Citizenry under British Law and culturally guided by British Christian Ministry. Any Student of Christianity would know that Moses led his people into the wilderness where they stayed for forty years. It took 40 years or about three generations to unleash the slave mentality/mindset based on their slavemaster's pagan culture, and establish a people ready to adopt the Christian teaching to build a community.
Today we have a similar problem. The Christian teaching adopted by the early God fearing Pioneers has been replaced by godless capitalism and consumerism supplemented by pagan culture from various secular immigration groups.
The question is, can these diverse secular groups integrate to form a cohesive productive society or will they simply band into their own specific cultures and fight for their unique supremacy, as so far immigration has shown to be the case.
My humble observation is that these various groups have NO enduring commitment to integration into a whole productive Nation, they demand to retain their individual cultural mindset.
The problem we existing Citizens have is, unlike Moses, We dont have 40 years time to wait while they get sorted. The only other short term solution I see is, several regional divisions. IE NZ cut into sections, where those of one cultural order migrates to the section of their choosing and support and independent Governance. Will it come down to that; exploding self serving populations jostling for space. Maoris on the East Coast. Indians on the North Coast, Chinese on the West Coast, and original pioneer Citizens relegated to the deep South. Is that the only way to avoid a war of cultures that UNDRIP will inevitably initiate. We have much to thank these Ministers and their Party Agenda for. But will the children of our legacy forgive.
I think that you are expecting far too much from Luxon - he simply doesn't appear to have any beliefs or basic philosophy as such and that has been evident for quite some time now. As for the holding hands thing- I think amongst males that is acceptable in some societies, and we shouldn't read much if anything into that that. We certainly need to regular our immigrants and always should aim for a tightly controlled flow of people from diverse countries but all of whom have a commitment to integrate and become New Zealanders.
". . . tightly controlled flow of people from diverse countries . . ."
++++
Why diverse?
Well mostly I suggest so that we don't have ghettos forming which is largely the problem in Europe at present. That means almost zero integration. Also because probably the greatest period of immigration was into the US in the first part of the 20th century and that was a success by any measure.
Wait on. In your first comment you were calling for immigrants from diverse sources: ". . . tightly controlled flow of people from diverse countries . . ."
The reason Europe is having problems is because the incomers are a "diverse" lot. Couldn't be more diverse. And it's people from "diverse" sources that form ghettoes.
That greatest period of immigration into the US in the first part of the 20th century was a long way from being diverse. It was almost entirely from Europe.
The US, especially the Democrat run states (California and Minnesota at the top of the list) is currently experiencing corruption on a vast scale precisely because immigration to those areas is diversity on steroids.
Gilbert - you are quite right and my choice of the word 'diverse' was ill thought and I retract it. Likewise you are correct about the US immigration -it was not very diverse at all in the first part of the 20th century. You are quite wrong though I think about Europe and especially the UK now as the problem is that is uncontrolled immigration and the results of that in the UK and throughout Europe are just awful. Thanks for the correction -a good debate.
Obviously, uncontrolled migration is causing huge problems for Europe; I don't dispute that at all. It just happens to be worsened by those migrants being "diverse".
At least we get to discuss this topic is a reasonable way and for that - thank you. The way that the immigrants into the Uk are not diverse (as I understand it ) is that they are almost entirely young males. I suggest the experience=in so many countries is that immigration must be carefully controlled.
Well said Peter, I had a similar reaction. But I wonder if he's greasing up India as a counter to Chinese influence?
Weird is correct, Peter.
Apparently, the Kiwi PM has to follow Indian culture and hold hands with his Indian counterpart, even when they meet in New Zealand.
But the Indian PM doesn't have to follow Kiwi culture and speak in our official language when he's in our country.
Not only weird, disrespectful.
And years ago I read somewhere that a certain class of Indians believed that India had a country in the South Pacific. They were, of course, referring to Fiji.
In decades to come, they'll be saying they have two countries in the South Pacific.
I don’t think Modi needs to feel uncomfortable here…he hold all the cards, his 1.5 Billion visiting 5 million.
Another point of interest - India remains one of Russia’s main customers, importing billions of dollars of oil and fuel, plus they negotiated decades-long contracts for Russian military hardware, including tanks, fighter jets and air defence systems.
Apparently Western sanctions do not apply to the Indian regime; that’s their call but again just what is our Govt lining us up with?
PS: I am not anti-trade at all, the more we can create healthy markets for our products the better, as long as there aren’t inappropriate caveats involved.